For the record, this is my longest thread ever, to date. And Ophan wasn't even part of this one!
The Definition of Love, My Own Personal "White Whale," and Reanimating the Dead. And Raptors.
ArchAngel: So I'm interested--how does everyone define love? What is it? Why is it important? Serious opinions only, please. None of that silly high school crap.
ArchAngel: For my part, I don't think of love as an emotion. Emotions are born of human nature, and human nature is inherently selfish and self-serving. That's the opposite of love. Love is a conscious decision to put another's feelings and happiness before your own, the willingness to sacrifice your own comfort and impulses for the sake of the object of your love. It's always having that voice in the back of your mind that weighs all of your actions against the possible effects it may have on the person you care about, and it tells you to behave accordingly.
Human nature, however, the driving force behind your emotions tells you to make sure you're happy and comfortable, placated and content, and that everyone else's needs are secondary to your own. These selfish inclinations, from what I've observed, are toxic to any relationship of which love is supposed to be the pivotal aspect.
This doesn't mean that I don't believe love and emotion don't go hand in hand. Love may be a decision, a sacrificial action at its core and by my definition, but it sure does draw a torrent of emotions along behind it in the gravity of it's presence. I think you decide to love, and work hard to keep on loving, and you feel the massive changes wrought by the emotion born on its wake.
Sophia: I don't think that anyone could say it any better than the way you just expressed. If I step back and look at my life in those terms...I do love, and greatly. The sacrifice of laying self down in order to aid growth or assuage pain on my beloveds behalf is what love is all about. It is what my life is all about. Being a wife, a mother, a daughter, and friend. It is key to all of these relationships.
I have seen love as an emotion fade. I would dare to say that 100% of the time that is the case. It is the perseverance to keep caring and denying ones own needs and desires in order to sustain the relationship and communication between two partners who were formerly "in love" or infatuated with each other. That is what true love means. The use of not only your heart and emotions, but your whole being in dedication to your significant other. There is definitely an altar involved. Love must be a continuous offering of self denial. But not self hating. Self denial on a level that is so practiced that it is second nature and comes almost naturally. If you don't esteem others, especially your beloved, as worthy of laying yourself down, then you do not know true love. Our hearts are deceitfully wicked, who can know them? Only the death of self can nurture an honest and trusted foundation for love, let alone the furtherance of it.
Love should be a joy, knowing that you are accepted, flaws and all. Christ did, indeed, He set the standard. But He has given us the guideline and tools to accomplish that which was set before us. He commanded us to love. He will assuredly strengthen us to do it, as well. I am a slow learner, but that is where my faith is placed, for I have never seen a truer representation of love than the one that was shown on Calvary.
I am still struggling with this vague and elusive emotion, and I believe that what is truly needed is for us to realize that we have misplaced our hopes. No love is so enduring or all encompassing in a humanly fashion that it puts out our desire for a taste of LOVE. That is why this question can never be tied up as neatly as we would like. Vanity, vanity, all is vanity. God gives us a little taste so that we see and believe that He is good...God is love. Our hunger for love will only be fully satisfied when we seek He that is Love, while still longing for more, always longing for more, never fully realizing our heart's desire until we are with Him.
ArchAngel: Good shit, good shit. Now, we just need to get Ophan to weigh in, or any of you other cowards that typically avoid involved, in depth serious conversation.
You sicken me. Fetch me the BUCKET!
[At this point, Lofielle hit the “like” button and Facebook of course let me know.]
ArchAngel: If Lofielle likes this, why doesn't she share her thoughts? As I seem remember her as a person from eons ago, I'd think she'd have an incredibly insightful and valid opinion.
Lofielle: Well thanks Angel, I started to respond but due to my 3 little loves I could not at the time. :)
To me love is simple but yet not at all. I agree with what you have said all, so this is just my opinion. Love comes in many shapes, sizes and depths. It all depends on each person to what and how they extend there love. Sometimes, I think people mistake passion for love, and of course it is great to have as part of your love.
I do believe love is also a choice because you're choosing to love whatever or whoever it is that you're loving, but then I also disagree with that because I'm a mother and I do not choose to love my children, I just do, it comes naturally. I loved them from the moment I knew I was pregnant with them, and the love only grows more if that's possible, and I believe it is. Love is also an action; maybe a smile that is only meant for that one person intended to receive that smile; small gestures is what I am saying. Love is an embrace of lust maybe, or is it? I dunno.
I believe that you share a special connection with the one you love. Some people have it while others only think they have it , and others want just a little chunk of what some call love, or at least someone to love. In a perfect world, right?
Love is selfless yet also selfish, I think. But most of all I think that love goes with honesty, commitment, trust, belief, sacrifice, and so on. Love doesn't even have to be “I love you let's go get married.” It's a plus, of course, because you take that huge step off forever, but I think love is not a diamond ring or any other materialistic thing. Yes gifts are nice, but money and gifts are not love to me. They're nice to say you have these things, of course, and money is a necessity I know, but sometimes just the thoughts of your loved ones are the best gifts of all. I'm just saying this because some associate love with what they get from loved ones.
Again, these are just my opinions, they matter only to me, I do not try to judge anyone's love for anyone or anything. :)
Lofielle: love–noun. verb--loved, lov·ing.
1.a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
2.a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
3.sexual passion or desire.
4.a person toward whom love is felt; beloved person; sweetheart.
5.(used in direct address as a term of endearment, affection, or the like): Would you like to see a movie, love?
6.a love affair; an intensely amorous incident; amour.
7.sexual intercourse; copulation.
8.(initial capital letter) a personification of sexual affection, as Eros or Cupid.
9.affectionate concern for the well-being of others: the love of one's neighbor.
10.strong predilection, enthusiasm, or liking for anything: her love of books.
11.the object or thing so liked: The theater was her great love.
12.the benevolent affection of God for His creatures, or the reverent affection due from them to God.
13.Chiefly Tennis. a score of zero; nothing.
14.a word formerly used in communications to represent the letter L.*
Seraph: Love is having the strength and ability to do things you thought were not possible in yourself. Not necessarily things you like or enjoy. Love is a continuous effort.
ArchAngel: Lofielle, I assume that's an actual definition. Could you post the reference, please? I appreciate it.
Seraph, that's very poetic. Not very detailed, but poetic, and I'll take what I can get.
Everyone else--if anyone knows about the sacrificial aspect of love, it's Seraph. She's married to me, after all, and I'm sure some of you can imagine the kind of natural strength of will that involves.
Lofielle: The reference was Dictionary.com. I just thought that I would throw what the dictionary says love is, but I think love is what each of us make it. :)
ArchAngel: Well, that's very hippie-esque of you.
Oh, if you hadn't noticed, posting on my comments makes you fair game for ridicule and sarcasm. It's all in good fun, don't take it personal.
That's a lie, it's not always in good fun, but in this case it is.
I'm an asshole, what can I say?
Gressil: Ophan might not be up to commenting for a while, but I'll put my two cents in.
I first must ask, if love is not emotion, what is it? The way that you (Angel) are describing love as a "conscious decision" leads me to believe that you are placing love on the side of human reason rather than emotion, like love is a science rather than an art. That may be a misinterpretation, but that's why I bring it up. It's easy to miscommunicate when communication happens in paragraphs over days...
I will somewhat boldly say that sacrificial love is almost completely nonsensical to me. Love should be an act of union. Western mystics equate the word Love with the Eastern word Yoga which is derived from the same root word as "yolk" as in a yolk of oxen.
Circumstances and wariness of public discourse prevent me from commenting further at present, but I'll be around...
Seraph: Okay, more detail.... Love is packing up and moving away from everyone and everything you know and throwing yourself into something new. Accepting someone for who they are and not changing that but, changing for them because you want to. Love is having great patience to get what you really want. Being able to get up every day and go on with life even when you think it's too hard to do. Love is knowing that someone is there for you even when they are miles away. Sleeping in that empty bed every night knowing that it won't be that way forever. Sometimes love is lonely and frustrating but it's worth every minute.
That might not be much more detail but, I tried.
Lofielle: I understand what I say becomes fair game. :) No worries.
Verrine: You said it well Angel! If I may...love also doesn't see size, color or social status. Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder! God is love ♥
ArchAngel: Love, simply put, is an action. It is never made clear with words, not perfectly, but it can be spoken without risk of misinterpretation by action. Anyone can say they love, but that doesn't make it true. If it is true, the words are superfluous, just a garnish on a dish that is a meal with or without it. The behavior of the people involved is what makes it truth.
What we tend to look at as "reason" also springs from human nature, with most commonly accepted logic being humanistic and self perpetuating. And as far as the sacrifice is concerned, don't think of it in a way that you'd give up your life to save the person you love (although extreme, that could be a good, albeit cliched example.) Think of it more in simple terms. A sacrifice can be defined on a smaller, simpler level. It could be nothing more than letting her watch her retarded reality shows about fashion, when really, it kinda makes your ears bleed. (Hi, Seraph!) Any time you place another's needs before your own, in any capacity, the potential for sacrifice is there, however small it may be. It may happen that the action results in a net gain emotionally for both parties, but it also frequently means your own desires take a back seat.
As for love being an act of union, that's specifically referring to one type of love, in this case I assume man and wife. But there are other types to consider, such as in situations where love can be valid in one person's case, but the object does not reciprocate. We'll ignore instances where, say, a guy loves his classic mustang convertible, because I think the validity of that situation is another debate altogether. But how about a mother and a newborn infant? In a normal case (should be every case,) the mother unquestionably loves her child, but the child is still unformed in many ways, including emotionally and intellectually. It could be argued that the newborn lacks any real kind of self awareness, and therefore the capacity to truly love. He or she relies on the mother for protection and sustenance, and could be said (I believe so,) to need the emotional attachment as well. In time, ideally, this one-sided dynamic will become a two-way street, the mutual affection and respect passing from each to the other. But at first, there's no union, no reciprocation, but that love is no less real.
As for your circumstances, I've heard a bit of them, and a lot of the behavior your receiving from the parties involved is pretty much the antithesis of what I've been talking about. What a painful juxtaposition.
ArchAngel: That was all a response to Gressil's post. The other ones got up there while I was typing, I didn't get to see them till I posted.
Lofielle and Verrine: smileys, little cutesy hearts and other such examples of web-speak are forbidden on my wall. We'll have none of that. A plague o'er both your houses.
Well, that seems a bit harsh. Rescinded. A plague o'er both of your shoe collections, may the half-off sales never grace your favorite shopping spots again.
Verrine: Wow, Angel! I'm so impressed. =) And I agree with you...
Verrine: Ha ha! That's OK...I'm not a shopper anyway.... I still have shoes from forever ago sooooooo.... =)
ArchAngel: Why would you be impressed? I've been trying to tell everyone for years that I'm amazing. This should be expected.
Sophia: Reasonable intelligence?! That is the nicest thing anyone has said to me today...oh, wait... no it's not. But, very nice none-the-less. I am very interested in this thread. I would like to hear more from Gressil.
I have, as yet to meet the elusive but oft spoken of Ophan. That would be a treat. I know she would have some deep thoughts on this subject.
As for the long-winded part, you, Angel, have me beaten by a longs shot. I think we could all agree on that.
A final thought for now...Seraph, you must be quite an impressive and wonderful woman. Blessed, as well. You have a thinking husband with a solid grounding.
I lied, this is my final thought: I hate romance. The idiot who thought that jewelry, chocolate, cards and the like could invoke love or a loving response makes me ill. I hate candle light, hot tubs and foot rubs. That is the opposite of real love in my book. That is why Angel has referred to as "handling"** a person as if they were indeed cogs, objects to be manipulated and molded to your selfish whims and wants. Romance novels are also disgusting. They breed unrealistic dreams in empty minds. Bah humbug!
Well, I guess I am a bit of a wind-bag, but these thoughts have been bottled up for a while now, and this is a well educated forum. So pick that apart and comment, as you will.
ArchAngel: HAHAHAHAHA!! She thinks I'm solidly grounded!!
Sophia: I suppose you will find it fit to correct that, or you could let your wife! I would listen to her on that subject. It was a compliment, though. Not thinly veiled in any insults.
Raziel: OK, after the many minutes I just spent reading all the posts, and due to my current mood I will enlighten everyone with my answer. Bottom line: Love is unexplainable. It's more than a feeling, it's more than a want or a need; it cannot be explained with words nor with actions. To me, it seems lots of people say they are in love, but are they truly? Angel, you did explain it the best. As far as you being amazing, well, that is debatable. However love came to or the word was chosen it is there, and to be in love, true love, is the greatest thing in the world and it takes work. However you say it, discuss it, or represent it, love is what you make it, and if it's real and it's true nothing can stop it...........
Sophia: Beautifully said, Raziel.
ArchAngel: And there we have it folks, the point of view most of us shared in, and have shed since, high school. Where's your wife, Sgt Raziel? I was really looking forward to her take.
Also, have you happened to see any time squirrels about? Yes? No? I think they've been avoiding you because you might be a Yak.
And let me know how her Ectoplasmic Tachyon Field Inducement Syndrome's progressing, since it was my own Canadian Black Magic that probably caused it.*** Looks like you might want to get checked yourself, I did mention one of the early symptoms was excessive use of periods at the end of sentences.
And that is what I like to call killing two birds with one stone. I got to insult Sgt Raziel while simultaneously giving an example of how "grounded" I may or may not be.
Raziel: OK, well for future reference its just Raziel on FB. And secondly, she is en route to Kansas and has not had a chance to comment. And besides, I don't care what you say about your high school comment, cause Sophia said it was beautifully said. As for the time squirrels and all that, yeah, nothing; as for me being a Yak, if they kill time squirrels, then count me in.
Sophia: My computer was not cooperating because I had more to say to Raziel...but of course now, it will seem trivial, like I am Angel's little side kick. Not to be rude, but here it goes.
Okay, this is it: that is a beautiful ending to the romance novel that I just threw into the flames. Also, get back to this thread in about ten years when all or your futile attempts to resuscitate your dying love fail, and all that is left is a charred bit of emptiness where it once thrived (mainly on physical attraction and endorphins.)
Sophia: Still, lovely wording, Raziel.
Seraph: Angel is only grounded where it really counts. When it's important to be. Other than that, no, not really that grounded. But, that's what I love about him.
Raziel: Retract my last statement about being nice to you. Look, no offense taken. I love debates. Bottom line is you can debate and try to define the true meaning of love all you want, but to me there are no words to explain it, and it's more than feelings and emotion. It's on a completely different level altogether.
Now the comment of Sophia being Angel's side kick, yeah I could definitely see that.
Sophia: No, now, no being nasty. I am no one's side kick...it just appears that way. I don't intend to cause you to be angry. I actually hold out hope that you remain happy and in love. Stay with your point of view, if you can. It is more than emotions. I will give you that.
Sophia: That is what I thought, Seraph. Thanks.
ArchAngel: That was AWESOME! "Futile attempts to resuscitate your dying love fail"?!? Oh man, this is my favorite thread ever! However, I should say, if I were to have a sidekick, I'd like one that was competent, but more importantly docile and so blindly loyal to me that he'd work as a nifty human shield when the bullets started to fly. Sophia, I don't think you fit the job requirements. [It occurs to me the way I worded this makes it sound like I'm inferring Sophia is not competent. This was not my intention, as she quite obviously is more than competent. If there was any confusion, it was surely my own fault.]
"Worded lovingly"!! CLASSIC!
No, no, indeed, certainly not a sidekick at all. Maybe a little bit of an agent of chaos after my own heart, but hardly a sidekick.
Sgt Raziel, in 60 years when I'm emperor of the world and you're an old washed out drunk on a soap box still trying to convince people the FY3S^ were the good guys, I'll still be calling you Sgt Raziel. For the record, yes, they're always trying to eliminate the NSO,^^ but so far they haven't managed to do anything. Like Elmer Fudd vs. Bugs Bunny.
Oh, and Sophia, if you didn't know, Sgt Raziel's actually about your age, that's why it's so great. To be fair, if I can be serious for a minute, (It could happen! Shut up!) he believes what he's saying, and him and Phenex are happy and I wish them the best. If (God forbid,) something happens to them, I certainly won't be saying "I told you so." Indeed, I like to pick on them, but I'd never say a word against their ridiculously out spoken, diabetes-causing, mushy, Sandra Bullock movie- type relationship.
They are newly weds, after all.
Raziel: LMAO! Sorry, my high school education isn't at your levels.
ArchAngel: I dropped out!
Seraph: It's okay, not everyone can be as well endowed with this magnificent brain power. Just try and keep up.
Raziel: I know that's what makes it even more sad on my part.
Oh and no hard feelings Sophia I love this stuff or I wouldn't submit my self to this torture from Angel.
Raziel: Seraph, I am so glad you said brain power at the end of that statement. LOL, you guys have fun I am going to watch ALF and go to sleep now
ArchAngel: Damn, I was trying to turn the tide of the conversation before someone latched onto the word endowed!
Dammit!
ArchAngel: When you say ALF, do you mean the puppet thing from Melnac that's always trying to eat the house cat?
Seraph: Well that wasn't much of an attack at all. What happened? I was expecting something better. It's okay, go rest your head. I'm sure all this excitement has fizzled you out.
Sophia: It's all good, then. I just met ArchAngel a little while ago, rest assured I was initiated. This is the best thread that I have read on FB. It is getting to be a little on the chatty side, though. I am going to leave it for awhile and see if it gets any more new developments later. Dinner and family awaits me. Nice to meet you all (for now).
Raziel: It has, so I am watching ALF. Try and get some cat juice to cure his hiccups... This is a lot of excitement, and it is trying my brain power.
Sophia: Just a side note, I have been married for almost 11 years now. I may know more about resuscitating once dead love. Just might.
ArchAngel: You're married to Frankenstein?
ArchAngel: That comment was just like my wife.
Cheap and easy.
Lofielle: Sorry for the smiley's. I just wanted to say that this is everyone's view of love, and it's great, this thread is great, it's got everything you want from a conversation: compliments, insults, bitchiness, asshole-ness; well it has a bit everything. Love the humor.
Sophia: Actually, close. Sad to say. I call him Frank.
Akriel: I've always liked this quote: "Overrated. Biochemically no different than eating large quantities of chocolate. "*^
ArchAngel: Speaking of bitchiness, what's up Akriel?
ArchAngel: Start Trouble is a band. Chorus from their song "Chemical:"
Love is a chemical
Straight from the genitals
Never is spiritual
Never unconditional
Love is a chemical
Nature is radical
Never is spiritual
It's mathematical
And everything the you've ever known to date
Is all the world can give you
Don't believe in love or hate
It's only a chemical
It's a total load of crap, obviously. Catchy song though.
Oh, and congratulations Akriel, you posted the 50th comment on this thread! Did the balloons and confetti go off at your house? No? Dammit! Those bastards charged the crap outta me for that too...
ArchAngel: Oh, and Lofielle, it's good to see you're still saying your sorry for things when you've obviously done nothing wrong. I remember in high school, English class I think, one time walking down the aisle, I stepped on your foot and you immediately apologized to me for it. I still tell people that story. To this day, you're still the only person I could not piss off, even a little, ever, no matter how hard I tried. You're like my white whale, only, y'know, not a giant sea-faring mammal I'm chasing with a harpoon.
Ask Sophia. I've never even met her, and I had her pissed off mere hours after we started talking.
I still got it!
Lofielle: My foot was in your way! Just kidding. It's my quirk, still to this day. I haven't changed much, not as quiet. You never made me mad. I thought it was funny all of the sarcasm, I liked the fact that you were you, and never tried to be someone else. You never got lost in all the high school drama, and it seems like you have not changed much either.
ArchAngel: I've changed a lot, actually, but all for the better, and in deeper ways than would be noticeable to most. I wouldn't have expected you to sense the parts of me I've shed, because rage and anger and all the negative, corrosive emotions seem to have very little influence on you, so I don't imagine you'd have seen them in me. That makes me happy, as people like you are rare indeed, and I wouldn't want to think I'd corrupted such innocence and goodness.
I have, however, managed to hang on to a lot of the way I was, including the way I don't give a rip what others think of me, and I'm still bagging on people for their ridiculous high school drama, only now they just think they're being grown ups. Why is it so many people never get away from that small-minded existence?
Briathos: Angel, I agree with the last thing you said.... At least the beginning I didn't read all of it. You have changed thankfully, a lot and for the better. Oh yeah, I'm not one who types correctly let alone speaks correctly, so fuck off on how I say anything.
Love is when you do/overcome/deal with things you would never do even if your life depended on it. And when all that matters to you is to making that person happy and safe. Love is finding strength to forgive and never giving up
ArchAngel: And that, ladies and gentlemen, is my sister-in-law the ho bag! Give her a hand!
Still, very succinctly put. I'll wait while you look that up in the dictionary.
Wait a minute, are you just quoting twilight?
Lofielle: Well, we all change of course. Just happy to hear that your change was for the better.
Sophia: Angel, You only mildly annoyed me. [She's jumping way back up and responding to the Frankenstein comment here.] My rage is, as of now, untouched. Do not unleash it. It is a fury the likes of which no man can survive. I am kidding. My husband is still breathing, so I lied.
ArchAngel: Shit, that's disappointing. I had visions of pitchforks and sword fights, and a love that transcended death AND mad science, and I might even have been able to sneak a raptor or two in there. Ah, well. Let me know, if you ever do need help giving unnatural life to a corpse, I'm there.
Sophia: You would be the first person thought of if I needed some life breathed into anything. You are full of hot air.
Sophia: Said in the nicest way possible.
ArchAngel: Ooh! Burn! I might be offended, but I'm sure you're just responding to the shaking sensation my amazing aura causes in others. I'm used to it, it's okay.
Sophia: Glad that you understood exactly what was happening to me. I just thought I had gas. Do you cause that, as well?
ArchAngel: Yes, I frequently do.
* Dictionary.com
** Sophia is referring to a conversation I had with her about how people handle each other, the word "handle" being another way to say manipulate. This is not exactly what I meant, I use the word handle precisely because it does not have the same negative connotation manipulate does. Handling refers to the way you try to change a person's mood when they're feeling down to cheer them up, and other positive every day behaviors of that nature.
*** See Messin' With Raziel's Girl Thing for further details.
^ Federacion de la Yak con Tres Sapos.
^^ The New Squirrel Order
*^ Character John Milton as played by Al Pacino in the movie The Devil's Advocate, Warner Bros. Pictures, 1997
ArchAngel: For my part, I don't think of love as an emotion. Emotions are born of human nature, and human nature is inherently selfish and self-serving. That's the opposite of love. Love is a conscious decision to put another's feelings and happiness before your own, the willingness to sacrifice your own comfort and impulses for the sake of the object of your love. It's always having that voice in the back of your mind that weighs all of your actions against the possible effects it may have on the person you care about, and it tells you to behave accordingly.
Human nature, however, the driving force behind your emotions tells you to make sure you're happy and comfortable, placated and content, and that everyone else's needs are secondary to your own. These selfish inclinations, from what I've observed, are toxic to any relationship of which love is supposed to be the pivotal aspect.
This doesn't mean that I don't believe love and emotion don't go hand in hand. Love may be a decision, a sacrificial action at its core and by my definition, but it sure does draw a torrent of emotions along behind it in the gravity of it's presence. I think you decide to love, and work hard to keep on loving, and you feel the massive changes wrought by the emotion born on its wake.
Sophia: I don't think that anyone could say it any better than the way you just expressed. If I step back and look at my life in those terms...I do love, and greatly. The sacrifice of laying self down in order to aid growth or assuage pain on my beloveds behalf is what love is all about. It is what my life is all about. Being a wife, a mother, a daughter, and friend. It is key to all of these relationships.
I have seen love as an emotion fade. I would dare to say that 100% of the time that is the case. It is the perseverance to keep caring and denying ones own needs and desires in order to sustain the relationship and communication between two partners who were formerly "in love" or infatuated with each other. That is what true love means. The use of not only your heart and emotions, but your whole being in dedication to your significant other. There is definitely an altar involved. Love must be a continuous offering of self denial. But not self hating. Self denial on a level that is so practiced that it is second nature and comes almost naturally. If you don't esteem others, especially your beloved, as worthy of laying yourself down, then you do not know true love. Our hearts are deceitfully wicked, who can know them? Only the death of self can nurture an honest and trusted foundation for love, let alone the furtherance of it.
Love should be a joy, knowing that you are accepted, flaws and all. Christ did, indeed, He set the standard. But He has given us the guideline and tools to accomplish that which was set before us. He commanded us to love. He will assuredly strengthen us to do it, as well. I am a slow learner, but that is where my faith is placed, for I have never seen a truer representation of love than the one that was shown on Calvary.
I am still struggling with this vague and elusive emotion, and I believe that what is truly needed is for us to realize that we have misplaced our hopes. No love is so enduring or all encompassing in a humanly fashion that it puts out our desire for a taste of LOVE. That is why this question can never be tied up as neatly as we would like. Vanity, vanity, all is vanity. God gives us a little taste so that we see and believe that He is good...God is love. Our hunger for love will only be fully satisfied when we seek He that is Love, while still longing for more, always longing for more, never fully realizing our heart's desire until we are with Him.
ArchAngel: Good shit, good shit. Now, we just need to get Ophan to weigh in, or any of you other cowards that typically avoid involved, in depth serious conversation.
You sicken me. Fetch me the BUCKET!
[At this point, Lofielle hit the “like” button and Facebook of course let me know.]
ArchAngel: If Lofielle likes this, why doesn't she share her thoughts? As I seem remember her as a person from eons ago, I'd think she'd have an incredibly insightful and valid opinion.
Lofielle: Well thanks Angel, I started to respond but due to my 3 little loves I could not at the time. :)
To me love is simple but yet not at all. I agree with what you have said all, so this is just my opinion. Love comes in many shapes, sizes and depths. It all depends on each person to what and how they extend there love. Sometimes, I think people mistake passion for love, and of course it is great to have as part of your love.
I do believe love is also a choice because you're choosing to love whatever or whoever it is that you're loving, but then I also disagree with that because I'm a mother and I do not choose to love my children, I just do, it comes naturally. I loved them from the moment I knew I was pregnant with them, and the love only grows more if that's possible, and I believe it is. Love is also an action; maybe a smile that is only meant for that one person intended to receive that smile; small gestures is what I am saying. Love is an embrace of lust maybe, or is it? I dunno.
I believe that you share a special connection with the one you love. Some people have it while others only think they have it , and others want just a little chunk of what some call love, or at least someone to love. In a perfect world, right?
Love is selfless yet also selfish, I think. But most of all I think that love goes with honesty, commitment, trust, belief, sacrifice, and so on. Love doesn't even have to be “I love you let's go get married.” It's a plus, of course, because you take that huge step off forever, but I think love is not a diamond ring or any other materialistic thing. Yes gifts are nice, but money and gifts are not love to me. They're nice to say you have these things, of course, and money is a necessity I know, but sometimes just the thoughts of your loved ones are the best gifts of all. I'm just saying this because some associate love with what they get from loved ones.
Again, these are just my opinions, they matter only to me, I do not try to judge anyone's love for anyone or anything. :)
Lofielle: love–noun. verb--loved, lov·ing.
1.a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
2.a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
3.sexual passion or desire.
4.a person toward whom love is felt; beloved person; sweetheart.
5.(used in direct address as a term of endearment, affection, or the like): Would you like to see a movie, love?
6.a love affair; an intensely amorous incident; amour.
7.sexual intercourse; copulation.
8.(initial capital letter) a personification of sexual affection, as Eros or Cupid.
9.affectionate concern for the well-being of others: the love of one's neighbor.
10.strong predilection, enthusiasm, or liking for anything: her love of books.
11.the object or thing so liked: The theater was her great love.
12.the benevolent affection of God for His creatures, or the reverent affection due from them to God.
13.Chiefly Tennis. a score of zero; nothing.
14.a word formerly used in communications to represent the letter L.*
Seraph: Love is having the strength and ability to do things you thought were not possible in yourself. Not necessarily things you like or enjoy. Love is a continuous effort.
ArchAngel: Lofielle, I assume that's an actual definition. Could you post the reference, please? I appreciate it.
Seraph, that's very poetic. Not very detailed, but poetic, and I'll take what I can get.
Everyone else--if anyone knows about the sacrificial aspect of love, it's Seraph. She's married to me, after all, and I'm sure some of you can imagine the kind of natural strength of will that involves.
Lofielle: The reference was Dictionary.com. I just thought that I would throw what the dictionary says love is, but I think love is what each of us make it. :)
ArchAngel: Well, that's very hippie-esque of you.
Oh, if you hadn't noticed, posting on my comments makes you fair game for ridicule and sarcasm. It's all in good fun, don't take it personal.
That's a lie, it's not always in good fun, but in this case it is.
I'm an asshole, what can I say?
Gressil: Ophan might not be up to commenting for a while, but I'll put my two cents in.
I first must ask, if love is not emotion, what is it? The way that you (Angel) are describing love as a "conscious decision" leads me to believe that you are placing love on the side of human reason rather than emotion, like love is a science rather than an art. That may be a misinterpretation, but that's why I bring it up. It's easy to miscommunicate when communication happens in paragraphs over days...
I will somewhat boldly say that sacrificial love is almost completely nonsensical to me. Love should be an act of union. Western mystics equate the word Love with the Eastern word Yoga which is derived from the same root word as "yolk" as in a yolk of oxen.
Circumstances and wariness of public discourse prevent me from commenting further at present, but I'll be around...
Seraph: Okay, more detail.... Love is packing up and moving away from everyone and everything you know and throwing yourself into something new. Accepting someone for who they are and not changing that but, changing for them because you want to. Love is having great patience to get what you really want. Being able to get up every day and go on with life even when you think it's too hard to do. Love is knowing that someone is there for you even when they are miles away. Sleeping in that empty bed every night knowing that it won't be that way forever. Sometimes love is lonely and frustrating but it's worth every minute.
That might not be much more detail but, I tried.
Lofielle: I understand what I say becomes fair game. :) No worries.
Verrine: You said it well Angel! If I may...love also doesn't see size, color or social status. Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder! God is love ♥
ArchAngel: Love, simply put, is an action. It is never made clear with words, not perfectly, but it can be spoken without risk of misinterpretation by action. Anyone can say they love, but that doesn't make it true. If it is true, the words are superfluous, just a garnish on a dish that is a meal with or without it. The behavior of the people involved is what makes it truth.
What we tend to look at as "reason" also springs from human nature, with most commonly accepted logic being humanistic and self perpetuating. And as far as the sacrifice is concerned, don't think of it in a way that you'd give up your life to save the person you love (although extreme, that could be a good, albeit cliched example.) Think of it more in simple terms. A sacrifice can be defined on a smaller, simpler level. It could be nothing more than letting her watch her retarded reality shows about fashion, when really, it kinda makes your ears bleed. (Hi, Seraph!) Any time you place another's needs before your own, in any capacity, the potential for sacrifice is there, however small it may be. It may happen that the action results in a net gain emotionally for both parties, but it also frequently means your own desires take a back seat.
As for love being an act of union, that's specifically referring to one type of love, in this case I assume man and wife. But there are other types to consider, such as in situations where love can be valid in one person's case, but the object does not reciprocate. We'll ignore instances where, say, a guy loves his classic mustang convertible, because I think the validity of that situation is another debate altogether. But how about a mother and a newborn infant? In a normal case (should be every case,) the mother unquestionably loves her child, but the child is still unformed in many ways, including emotionally and intellectually. It could be argued that the newborn lacks any real kind of self awareness, and therefore the capacity to truly love. He or she relies on the mother for protection and sustenance, and could be said (I believe so,) to need the emotional attachment as well. In time, ideally, this one-sided dynamic will become a two-way street, the mutual affection and respect passing from each to the other. But at first, there's no union, no reciprocation, but that love is no less real.
As for your circumstances, I've heard a bit of them, and a lot of the behavior your receiving from the parties involved is pretty much the antithesis of what I've been talking about. What a painful juxtaposition.
ArchAngel: That was all a response to Gressil's post. The other ones got up there while I was typing, I didn't get to see them till I posted.
Lofielle and Verrine: smileys, little cutesy hearts and other such examples of web-speak are forbidden on my wall. We'll have none of that. A plague o'er both your houses.
Well, that seems a bit harsh. Rescinded. A plague o'er both of your shoe collections, may the half-off sales never grace your favorite shopping spots again.
Verrine: Wow, Angel! I'm so impressed. =) And I agree with you...
Verrine: Ha ha! That's OK...I'm not a shopper anyway.... I still have shoes from forever ago sooooooo.... =)
ArchAngel: Why would you be impressed? I've been trying to tell everyone for years that I'm amazing. This should be expected.
Sophia: Reasonable intelligence?! That is the nicest thing anyone has said to me today...oh, wait... no it's not. But, very nice none-the-less. I am very interested in this thread. I would like to hear more from Gressil.
I have, as yet to meet the elusive but oft spoken of Ophan. That would be a treat. I know she would have some deep thoughts on this subject.
As for the long-winded part, you, Angel, have me beaten by a longs shot. I think we could all agree on that.
A final thought for now...Seraph, you must be quite an impressive and wonderful woman. Blessed, as well. You have a thinking husband with a solid grounding.
I lied, this is my final thought: I hate romance. The idiot who thought that jewelry, chocolate, cards and the like could invoke love or a loving response makes me ill. I hate candle light, hot tubs and foot rubs. That is the opposite of real love in my book. That is why Angel has referred to as "handling"** a person as if they were indeed cogs, objects to be manipulated and molded to your selfish whims and wants. Romance novels are also disgusting. They breed unrealistic dreams in empty minds. Bah humbug!
Well, I guess I am a bit of a wind-bag, but these thoughts have been bottled up for a while now, and this is a well educated forum. So pick that apart and comment, as you will.
ArchAngel: HAHAHAHAHA!! She thinks I'm solidly grounded!!
Sophia: I suppose you will find it fit to correct that, or you could let your wife! I would listen to her on that subject. It was a compliment, though. Not thinly veiled in any insults.
Raziel: OK, after the many minutes I just spent reading all the posts, and due to my current mood I will enlighten everyone with my answer. Bottom line: Love is unexplainable. It's more than a feeling, it's more than a want or a need; it cannot be explained with words nor with actions. To me, it seems lots of people say they are in love, but are they truly? Angel, you did explain it the best. As far as you being amazing, well, that is debatable. However love came to or the word was chosen it is there, and to be in love, true love, is the greatest thing in the world and it takes work. However you say it, discuss it, or represent it, love is what you make it, and if it's real and it's true nothing can stop it...........
Sophia: Beautifully said, Raziel.
ArchAngel: And there we have it folks, the point of view most of us shared in, and have shed since, high school. Where's your wife, Sgt Raziel? I was really looking forward to her take.
Also, have you happened to see any time squirrels about? Yes? No? I think they've been avoiding you because you might be a Yak.
And let me know how her Ectoplasmic Tachyon Field Inducement Syndrome's progressing, since it was my own Canadian Black Magic that probably caused it.*** Looks like you might want to get checked yourself, I did mention one of the early symptoms was excessive use of periods at the end of sentences.
And that is what I like to call killing two birds with one stone. I got to insult Sgt Raziel while simultaneously giving an example of how "grounded" I may or may not be.
Raziel: OK, well for future reference its just Raziel on FB. And secondly, she is en route to Kansas and has not had a chance to comment. And besides, I don't care what you say about your high school comment, cause Sophia said it was beautifully said. As for the time squirrels and all that, yeah, nothing; as for me being a Yak, if they kill time squirrels, then count me in.
Sophia: My computer was not cooperating because I had more to say to Raziel...but of course now, it will seem trivial, like I am Angel's little side kick. Not to be rude, but here it goes.
Okay, this is it: that is a beautiful ending to the romance novel that I just threw into the flames. Also, get back to this thread in about ten years when all or your futile attempts to resuscitate your dying love fail, and all that is left is a charred bit of emptiness where it once thrived (mainly on physical attraction and endorphins.)
Sophia: Still, lovely wording, Raziel.
Seraph: Angel is only grounded where it really counts. When it's important to be. Other than that, no, not really that grounded. But, that's what I love about him.
Raziel: Retract my last statement about being nice to you. Look, no offense taken. I love debates. Bottom line is you can debate and try to define the true meaning of love all you want, but to me there are no words to explain it, and it's more than feelings and emotion. It's on a completely different level altogether.
Now the comment of Sophia being Angel's side kick, yeah I could definitely see that.
Sophia: No, now, no being nasty. I am no one's side kick...it just appears that way. I don't intend to cause you to be angry. I actually hold out hope that you remain happy and in love. Stay with your point of view, if you can. It is more than emotions. I will give you that.
Sophia: That is what I thought, Seraph. Thanks.
ArchAngel: That was AWESOME! "Futile attempts to resuscitate your dying love fail"?!? Oh man, this is my favorite thread ever! However, I should say, if I were to have a sidekick, I'd like one that was competent, but more importantly docile and so blindly loyal to me that he'd work as a nifty human shield when the bullets started to fly. Sophia, I don't think you fit the job requirements. [It occurs to me the way I worded this makes it sound like I'm inferring Sophia is not competent. This was not my intention, as she quite obviously is more than competent. If there was any confusion, it was surely my own fault.]
"Worded lovingly"!! CLASSIC!
No, no, indeed, certainly not a sidekick at all. Maybe a little bit of an agent of chaos after my own heart, but hardly a sidekick.
Sgt Raziel, in 60 years when I'm emperor of the world and you're an old washed out drunk on a soap box still trying to convince people the FY3S^ were the good guys, I'll still be calling you Sgt Raziel. For the record, yes, they're always trying to eliminate the NSO,^^ but so far they haven't managed to do anything. Like Elmer Fudd vs. Bugs Bunny.
Oh, and Sophia, if you didn't know, Sgt Raziel's actually about your age, that's why it's so great. To be fair, if I can be serious for a minute, (It could happen! Shut up!) he believes what he's saying, and him and Phenex are happy and I wish them the best. If (God forbid,) something happens to them, I certainly won't be saying "I told you so." Indeed, I like to pick on them, but I'd never say a word against their ridiculously out spoken, diabetes-causing, mushy, Sandra Bullock movie- type relationship.
They are newly weds, after all.
Raziel: LMAO! Sorry, my high school education isn't at your levels.
ArchAngel: I dropped out!
Seraph: It's okay, not everyone can be as well endowed with this magnificent brain power. Just try and keep up.
Raziel: I know that's what makes it even more sad on my part.
Oh and no hard feelings Sophia I love this stuff or I wouldn't submit my self to this torture from Angel.
Raziel: Seraph, I am so glad you said brain power at the end of that statement. LOL, you guys have fun I am going to watch ALF and go to sleep now
ArchAngel: Damn, I was trying to turn the tide of the conversation before someone latched onto the word endowed!
Dammit!
ArchAngel: When you say ALF, do you mean the puppet thing from Melnac that's always trying to eat the house cat?
Seraph: Well that wasn't much of an attack at all. What happened? I was expecting something better. It's okay, go rest your head. I'm sure all this excitement has fizzled you out.
Sophia: It's all good, then. I just met ArchAngel a little while ago, rest assured I was initiated. This is the best thread that I have read on FB. It is getting to be a little on the chatty side, though. I am going to leave it for awhile and see if it gets any more new developments later. Dinner and family awaits me. Nice to meet you all (for now).
Raziel: It has, so I am watching ALF. Try and get some cat juice to cure his hiccups... This is a lot of excitement, and it is trying my brain power.
Sophia: Just a side note, I have been married for almost 11 years now. I may know more about resuscitating once dead love. Just might.
ArchAngel: You're married to Frankenstein?
ArchAngel: That comment was just like my wife.
Cheap and easy.
Lofielle: Sorry for the smiley's. I just wanted to say that this is everyone's view of love, and it's great, this thread is great, it's got everything you want from a conversation: compliments, insults, bitchiness, asshole-ness; well it has a bit everything. Love the humor.
Sophia: Actually, close. Sad to say. I call him Frank.
Akriel: I've always liked this quote: "Overrated. Biochemically no different than eating large quantities of chocolate. "*^
ArchAngel: Speaking of bitchiness, what's up Akriel?
ArchAngel: Start Trouble is a band. Chorus from their song "Chemical:"
Love is a chemical
Straight from the genitals
Never is spiritual
Never unconditional
Love is a chemical
Nature is radical
Never is spiritual
It's mathematical
And everything the you've ever known to date
Is all the world can give you
Don't believe in love or hate
It's only a chemical
It's a total load of crap, obviously. Catchy song though.
Oh, and congratulations Akriel, you posted the 50th comment on this thread! Did the balloons and confetti go off at your house? No? Dammit! Those bastards charged the crap outta me for that too...
ArchAngel: Oh, and Lofielle, it's good to see you're still saying your sorry for things when you've obviously done nothing wrong. I remember in high school, English class I think, one time walking down the aisle, I stepped on your foot and you immediately apologized to me for it. I still tell people that story. To this day, you're still the only person I could not piss off, even a little, ever, no matter how hard I tried. You're like my white whale, only, y'know, not a giant sea-faring mammal I'm chasing with a harpoon.
Ask Sophia. I've never even met her, and I had her pissed off mere hours after we started talking.
I still got it!
Lofielle: My foot was in your way! Just kidding. It's my quirk, still to this day. I haven't changed much, not as quiet. You never made me mad. I thought it was funny all of the sarcasm, I liked the fact that you were you, and never tried to be someone else. You never got lost in all the high school drama, and it seems like you have not changed much either.
ArchAngel: I've changed a lot, actually, but all for the better, and in deeper ways than would be noticeable to most. I wouldn't have expected you to sense the parts of me I've shed, because rage and anger and all the negative, corrosive emotions seem to have very little influence on you, so I don't imagine you'd have seen them in me. That makes me happy, as people like you are rare indeed, and I wouldn't want to think I'd corrupted such innocence and goodness.
I have, however, managed to hang on to a lot of the way I was, including the way I don't give a rip what others think of me, and I'm still bagging on people for their ridiculous high school drama, only now they just think they're being grown ups. Why is it so many people never get away from that small-minded existence?
Briathos: Angel, I agree with the last thing you said.... At least the beginning I didn't read all of it. You have changed thankfully, a lot and for the better. Oh yeah, I'm not one who types correctly let alone speaks correctly, so fuck off on how I say anything.
Love is when you do/overcome/deal with things you would never do even if your life depended on it. And when all that matters to you is to making that person happy and safe. Love is finding strength to forgive and never giving up
ArchAngel: And that, ladies and gentlemen, is my sister-in-law the ho bag! Give her a hand!
Still, very succinctly put. I'll wait while you look that up in the dictionary.
Wait a minute, are you just quoting twilight?
Lofielle: Well, we all change of course. Just happy to hear that your change was for the better.
Sophia: Angel, You only mildly annoyed me. [She's jumping way back up and responding to the Frankenstein comment here.] My rage is, as of now, untouched. Do not unleash it. It is a fury the likes of which no man can survive. I am kidding. My husband is still breathing, so I lied.
ArchAngel: Shit, that's disappointing. I had visions of pitchforks and sword fights, and a love that transcended death AND mad science, and I might even have been able to sneak a raptor or two in there. Ah, well. Let me know, if you ever do need help giving unnatural life to a corpse, I'm there.
Sophia: You would be the first person thought of if I needed some life breathed into anything. You are full of hot air.
Sophia: Said in the nicest way possible.
ArchAngel: Ooh! Burn! I might be offended, but I'm sure you're just responding to the shaking sensation my amazing aura causes in others. I'm used to it, it's okay.
Sophia: Glad that you understood exactly what was happening to me. I just thought I had gas. Do you cause that, as well?
ArchAngel: Yes, I frequently do.
* Dictionary.com
** Sophia is referring to a conversation I had with her about how people handle each other, the word "handle" being another way to say manipulate. This is not exactly what I meant, I use the word handle precisely because it does not have the same negative connotation manipulate does. Handling refers to the way you try to change a person's mood when they're feeling down to cheer them up, and other positive every day behaviors of that nature.
*** See Messin' With Raziel's Girl Thing for further details.
^ Federacion de la Yak con Tres Sapos.
^^ The New Squirrel Order
*^ Character John Milton as played by Al Pacino in the movie The Devil's Advocate, Warner Bros. Pictures, 1997