I'm no longer clear what sparked this debate in the first place, but it probably had something to do with "The Quote Wars." Ophan and I went through a phase where we would post random meaningful quotes on Facebook without a reference, to see if the other could figure out who it was that had said it without Googling it. At some point, someone (probably me,) made a comment about wisdom, and the following conversation ensued.
The Debate on Wisdom
Ophan: And also, I don't really think anyone is wise. People just grasp at things that inspire them and call it wisdom. Just a thought...
ArchAngel: That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. No offense.
Ophan: Well, whatever floats your boat. Wisdom and faith just don't do it for me. No offense, and none taken, though you did just call me dumb...
ArchAngel: No, I said what you said was dumb. Intelligent people can say stupid things. I do it all the time.
Ophan: "It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err."
[She didn't reference this quote, but I looked it up. It's Mahatma Gandhi.]
ArchAngel: That's what I just said. Recognizing the wisdom of another is much easier than admitting that you yourself may be unwise, after all. What's the point of having fun with quotes if you deny the fact that they're good because they speak towards a fundamental truth that surpasses ordinary understanding?
Ophan: Not exactly, and just because a quote is good doesn't mean it's wise. There's a quote by Wilde, (currently trying to find the exact quote to avoid a misquote, ha.) I'll post in a few.
Why must you believe in a fundamental truth? Truth is in itself a paradox. And recognizing wisdom is rather difficult to do, as if it sounds good and runs along the same lines as your own personal beliefs, you can call it wise, but if John or Jane Doe heard it, they might think it's a crock.
ArchAngel: You don't have to believe in a fundamental truth. Lots of people don't. You don't have to believe in gravity either. John and Jane Doe hear things all the time that they thing is a crock. It's been my experience in my life and travels that John and Jane Doe are idiots, caught in a microcosmic existence that is self-serving and masturbatory. When a statement holds truth as it applies to a person or people, and that statement retains it's meaning regardless of setting, social position, circumstance or point in history, that's wisdom. If I say it now, and it's still true in 3000 years, I think that qualifies.
Ophan: It's been my experience that most people cling to what they already know and become rather close-minded about everything else. Tell me, what does anyone ever do that isn't ultimately self-serving and masturbatory? Life just might be as good as gets. No one really ever knows. Except for maybe the dead, and they're not talking.
ArchAngel: And that, dear girl, is the attitude that pervades the minds those who have given up. I can't bring myself to live a life devoid of ideals. Even if -- and this is me being my own devil's advocate -- I were to subscribe to that type of humanistic thinking, I'd at least have to admit that the fundamental truth is the mean of all of humanity's perception of that truth. It's still there. As long as there are beings with higher functioning brains, those minds will have a solidifying impact on the universe. That impact is the truth. Seeing that impact clearly, realizing what it is, that is wisdom. What we are more familiar with is our own interpretation, which is what typically gets passed off as wisdom, and is almost always foolishness.
Ophan: “Since I gave up hope, I feel a whole lot better."
~Steve Taylor~
ArchAngel: Weak. Since you gave up on this conversation, it's no fun for me anymore.
ArchAngel: That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. No offense.
Ophan: Well, whatever floats your boat. Wisdom and faith just don't do it for me. No offense, and none taken, though you did just call me dumb...
ArchAngel: No, I said what you said was dumb. Intelligent people can say stupid things. I do it all the time.
Ophan: "It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err."
[She didn't reference this quote, but I looked it up. It's Mahatma Gandhi.]
ArchAngel: That's what I just said. Recognizing the wisdom of another is much easier than admitting that you yourself may be unwise, after all. What's the point of having fun with quotes if you deny the fact that they're good because they speak towards a fundamental truth that surpasses ordinary understanding?
Ophan: Not exactly, and just because a quote is good doesn't mean it's wise. There's a quote by Wilde, (currently trying to find the exact quote to avoid a misquote, ha.) I'll post in a few.
Why must you believe in a fundamental truth? Truth is in itself a paradox. And recognizing wisdom is rather difficult to do, as if it sounds good and runs along the same lines as your own personal beliefs, you can call it wise, but if John or Jane Doe heard it, they might think it's a crock.
ArchAngel: You don't have to believe in a fundamental truth. Lots of people don't. You don't have to believe in gravity either. John and Jane Doe hear things all the time that they thing is a crock. It's been my experience in my life and travels that John and Jane Doe are idiots, caught in a microcosmic existence that is self-serving and masturbatory. When a statement holds truth as it applies to a person or people, and that statement retains it's meaning regardless of setting, social position, circumstance or point in history, that's wisdom. If I say it now, and it's still true in 3000 years, I think that qualifies.
Ophan: It's been my experience that most people cling to what they already know and become rather close-minded about everything else. Tell me, what does anyone ever do that isn't ultimately self-serving and masturbatory? Life just might be as good as gets. No one really ever knows. Except for maybe the dead, and they're not talking.
ArchAngel: And that, dear girl, is the attitude that pervades the minds those who have given up. I can't bring myself to live a life devoid of ideals. Even if -- and this is me being my own devil's advocate -- I were to subscribe to that type of humanistic thinking, I'd at least have to admit that the fundamental truth is the mean of all of humanity's perception of that truth. It's still there. As long as there are beings with higher functioning brains, those minds will have a solidifying impact on the universe. That impact is the truth. Seeing that impact clearly, realizing what it is, that is wisdom. What we are more familiar with is our own interpretation, which is what typically gets passed off as wisdom, and is almost always foolishness.
Ophan: “Since I gave up hope, I feel a whole lot better."
~Steve Taylor~
ArchAngel: Weak. Since you gave up on this conversation, it's no fun for me anymore.