Arab Culture, Free Will and Raptors
This conversation started in response to Ophan posting a link to an article about a medical procedure growing in popularity, mostly amongst Arab women and girls, called hymenoplasty, the restoration of an artificial hymen to simulate virginity in one who has already had intercourse.
Ophan: Virginity is overrated.
Yofiel: I completely disagree that virginity is overrated, but what this article is about is crazy and slightly funny. It's so sad that woman feel like they have to resort to this for someone to love them. My wish for them would be that they find the freedom offered in Christ and forgive and love themselves. We are all only human.
Yofiel: I would say that "fake" virginity is overrated.
Zachriel: Religion without forgiveness is like a car with no wheels.
Ophan: Religion isn't the point-- why should someone be ostracized for losing their virginity? More on point--why is only the women? This IS 2010, and even these Arab cultures consider themselves to be modern. Or maybe religion is the point, as it's their culture which is pretty much based on their religion.
ArchAngel: You guys don't know anything about Arabic culture, do you?
Thelielle: Sad!
Ophan: ArchAngel, since you live there, enlighten us.
ArchAngel: You don't want to be enlightened, you want to believe that these women live a blighted, oppressed life and will never know true happiness or freedom. How very American of you to so easily take pity on the "poor, unlearned foreign girls." I don't suppose that it ever occurred to any of you that that pity is heavily resented, huh? They look at us as the unenlightened ones, and even a lot of their women (who are, contrary to popular belief, very capable of being outspoken and opinionated,) look at western women with the same scornful, degrading "pity." It's the culture, it's different and unfamiliar, and it is freely chosen by those that practice it. It is no less valid than our own societal traditions, and it's based on the same ridiculously vague adherence to "tradition" that no one questions, nor understands the origins of.
In short, it's humanity, and at the core, not at all different in it's varying practices. It's just that our habit as a species is to look at indications and effects and see it as the source and cause.
ArchAngel: And for the record, I don't live over here, I work over here, for now.
Ophan: I don't feel sorry for them any more than I feel sorry for some Americans for feeling that they have to adhere to their family's traditions. It is humanity, and while I could spend my time feeling sorry for the whole human race as a whole, it usually throws me into a pit of despair. Think about it long enough, and you can't crawl out. My point was, virginity is overrated in my opinion. I thought the article was rather interesting. A lot of American women have that surgery too. Personally, I wouldn't want to know anyone of any culture who used my hymen as scale of who I am. I mean, come on, it's made to be completely disposable.
ArchAngel: Well, that's an awfully literal view of the situation. I don't think it's so much about the hymen itself, more about what it says about the integrity of the woman. A virginal bride is a safer bet when you're looking at someone who not only holds the same ideals, but also has the strength to hold them in the face of temptation. Like it or not, the hymen or lack thereof indicates the actions of the woman, and your actions are the scale of who you are, regardless of what anyone tries to say. I know this for a fact, because I can have quite the silver tongue, I'm good with words and can spin them any way I want, and while it works to influence most people, at the end of the day an intelligent person will see me for what I am even if I buried them under a landslide of pretty speech -- mostly full of shit.
As far as the surgery being a "do-over," I gotta say it's a piss poor way to live your life, but consider also that an Arab girl can be abducted and raped, and when it is discovered, it's just the same as if she were a drunken slut that slept with a multitude of men for fun. In that instance, this surgery could not only be an aid to save face in the eyes of family and community, but also to save her life. In this way, I think it's a great thing.
ArchAngel: Check out that big beautiful example of a run on sentence at the end of the first paragraph!
Ophan: How does one rate the integrity of a man then? I don't think it's important to be a virgin on your wedding night.
And yes, it is a good thing for those girls who are raped, I think "honor killings" are ridiculous... a better course of action would be for their family and culture to pull a little radical Islamic fundamentalism and get revenge!
ArchAngel: Again, don't inflict your ideals onto another cultures traditions, it never works that way, it just clouds the potential for understanding. As it stands, I think killing for any reason is unjustified, regardless of circumstance (another topic, we'll breeze passed that for now.) It is a fact though, that as long as humans run a system, no matter how strong it may be in any given area, it will be fundamentally flawed. If someone managed to forge a balanced, functioning system for anything, it would be the standard model, and we have precious few of those (the only example that springs to mind is Playstation.)
When you say something like "I don't think it's important to..." you're taking what's best handled as an objective scenario and relegating it to the realm of opinion. If this was a discussion based on opinion, as you well know, by now I would've made numerous ridiculous and likely insulting comments regarding both your integrity and ancestral lineage. Thankfully, that's not the case, at least not yet. You never know with me, the night is young.
As for how one rates the integrity of a man, the same way you do with a woman, through observation of the way they live their life and how closely their behavior imitates their words. It just so happens, that in reference to this particular conversation, women have a lasting physical indicator of past actions. I don't know what the equivalent would be to a man, maybe a thin membrane covering the penis that was torn asunder during the first instance of intercourse. Personally, I'm grateful this is not the case, because we tend to be very particular about our tolerance of pain in that region, where the maximum allowable threshold is somewhere between zero and much less than zero. If this membrane existed, the human race would likely have ceased to exist somewhere in the vicinity of generation one.
And, finally, your mother. There, see? Questionable references to your lineage. It's already starting.
Ophan: I'lllet that last statement go as it has no bearing whatsoever to the rest of our conversation here, but any more and I'll have to delete to keep the peace. And HA! I just proved your point correct!
Men don't need a "hymen"... women don't either, obviously, ha.. I don't think killing is justifiable per say, but that doesn't mean I won't do it if I have to. I guess it's better to have humans running the system for the moment, and not a huge computer... which I think could be entirely possible one day in the far far future... : )
ArchAngel: I never said a hymen was necessary for gauging a woman's integrity, but the fact is in this case you have a preexisting biological indicator of behavior. From a purely objective point of view, ignoring social and traditional influences, it's not even that accurate. It's not uncommon for an adolescent girl to "pop her own cherry" unintentionally, say, with the application of a tampon. I once knew a girl whose hymen was torn because of her enthusiastic participation on the track team.
Also, anytime you catch yourself saying "HA! I just proved your point correct!" it typically does not mark an occasion for celebration. Now, if you had proven one of your points correct, then by all means, pat yourself on the back. Be careful not to pull a muscle though, as I'm sure these occasions are few and far between.
As for the rest of your post, I'm going to disregard the whole thing, for three reasons--
1.) There is never an instance where you "have to" do anything, including take a life. This statement encompasses any act that is not an involuntary biological process (i.e., you do have to circulate blood through your vascular system.) Inaction is always at least one secondary option. The only way to save your life, for example, may be to cut the rope another person is hanging onto because it's tied to the branch you're on above the velociraptor pit. If you don't, the branch will snap, resulting in both of your deaths. But the fact remains that you don't have to cut the rope. You could choose to do nothing and get a violent tour of undesirable cretaceous period intestinal real estate. I already said I was going to breeze passed this issue because it's an in depth philosophy I have not yet completely reconciled with my instincts, and at this point, I've barely actually disregarded anything.
2.) If humanity ever manages to create a system governed by some mythical "supercomputer" artificial intelligence, it will still be a human system. I think what your referencing is the idea that at some point we'll attain the fundamental knowledge required to impart the spark of creativity and imagination unto a machine we've created, allowing it to reach the status of a life form that is indeed not part of our system by virtue of it's own freewill. We don't even understand what gives us this spark yet, not even close, and the thought of us gaining this knowledge and also learning to create and manipulate the factors involved is about as likely as someone convincing me that I might not be awesome at all. We all know how soon that's gonna happen.
Lastly, 3.) Why is it always raptors with me? Is your mother a raptor?
Ophan: It's okay, I can pat you on the back too! I'm in a good mood tonight. Okay, shall I wait to have the killing convo with you for a later date? I think it will always be a gray area for me and most people, but there I go giving my opinion again...
Yes, I was referencing that "spark" and that's what I said the "far far future"... Honestly, the idea is on par with a part sci-fi, part medical mystery novel to me at the moment.
Yes, I know all those hymen breaking stories. It's cool.
When I said men don't need a hymen etc., I meant that literally. Men have penises, women don't. Penises are obviously cooler. When it comes down to it, integrity is important, but one can always lie.
Raptors? Huh...
ArchAngel: Lying and integrity are mutually exclusive concepts. The measure of integrity, as defined by me, is how closely your words sync up with your actions. Deception of any kind disrupts the synchronicity. Of course, on a day to day basis, you already know which of these practices is in more widespread use. Read - politicians.
Not all opinions are unfounded. In fact, they tend to match up to fact, by degrees, ranging from absurd all the way up to nearly proven. In this case, you're much closer to the latter - while there's no realistic way to gather empirical data ensuring a natural law is defined stating that the justification of taking another sentient life will never be universally agreed upon, it can be safely assumed that this is so. Of course, if it were proven somehow, it would cease to be an opinion and would become a fact.
Also, penises are cooler, but not nearly as fashionable. A naked woman can be beautiful. A naked man looks like a partially decorated Christmas tree. And cloacae, well, don't even get me started!
ArchAngel: How come as soon as we start going back and forth, everyone else abandons the conversation? You're all cowards.
That's a fact, not an opinion.
Ophan: Haha!
Ophan: Virginity is overrated.
Yofiel: I completely disagree that virginity is overrated, but what this article is about is crazy and slightly funny. It's so sad that woman feel like they have to resort to this for someone to love them. My wish for them would be that they find the freedom offered in Christ and forgive and love themselves. We are all only human.
Yofiel: I would say that "fake" virginity is overrated.
Zachriel: Religion without forgiveness is like a car with no wheels.
Ophan: Religion isn't the point-- why should someone be ostracized for losing their virginity? More on point--why is only the women? This IS 2010, and even these Arab cultures consider themselves to be modern. Or maybe religion is the point, as it's their culture which is pretty much based on their religion.
ArchAngel: You guys don't know anything about Arabic culture, do you?
Thelielle: Sad!
Ophan: ArchAngel, since you live there, enlighten us.
ArchAngel: You don't want to be enlightened, you want to believe that these women live a blighted, oppressed life and will never know true happiness or freedom. How very American of you to so easily take pity on the "poor, unlearned foreign girls." I don't suppose that it ever occurred to any of you that that pity is heavily resented, huh? They look at us as the unenlightened ones, and even a lot of their women (who are, contrary to popular belief, very capable of being outspoken and opinionated,) look at western women with the same scornful, degrading "pity." It's the culture, it's different and unfamiliar, and it is freely chosen by those that practice it. It is no less valid than our own societal traditions, and it's based on the same ridiculously vague adherence to "tradition" that no one questions, nor understands the origins of.
In short, it's humanity, and at the core, not at all different in it's varying practices. It's just that our habit as a species is to look at indications and effects and see it as the source and cause.
ArchAngel: And for the record, I don't live over here, I work over here, for now.
Ophan: I don't feel sorry for them any more than I feel sorry for some Americans for feeling that they have to adhere to their family's traditions. It is humanity, and while I could spend my time feeling sorry for the whole human race as a whole, it usually throws me into a pit of despair. Think about it long enough, and you can't crawl out. My point was, virginity is overrated in my opinion. I thought the article was rather interesting. A lot of American women have that surgery too. Personally, I wouldn't want to know anyone of any culture who used my hymen as scale of who I am. I mean, come on, it's made to be completely disposable.
ArchAngel: Well, that's an awfully literal view of the situation. I don't think it's so much about the hymen itself, more about what it says about the integrity of the woman. A virginal bride is a safer bet when you're looking at someone who not only holds the same ideals, but also has the strength to hold them in the face of temptation. Like it or not, the hymen or lack thereof indicates the actions of the woman, and your actions are the scale of who you are, regardless of what anyone tries to say. I know this for a fact, because I can have quite the silver tongue, I'm good with words and can spin them any way I want, and while it works to influence most people, at the end of the day an intelligent person will see me for what I am even if I buried them under a landslide of pretty speech -- mostly full of shit.
As far as the surgery being a "do-over," I gotta say it's a piss poor way to live your life, but consider also that an Arab girl can be abducted and raped, and when it is discovered, it's just the same as if she were a drunken slut that slept with a multitude of men for fun. In that instance, this surgery could not only be an aid to save face in the eyes of family and community, but also to save her life. In this way, I think it's a great thing.
ArchAngel: Check out that big beautiful example of a run on sentence at the end of the first paragraph!
Ophan: How does one rate the integrity of a man then? I don't think it's important to be a virgin on your wedding night.
And yes, it is a good thing for those girls who are raped, I think "honor killings" are ridiculous... a better course of action would be for their family and culture to pull a little radical Islamic fundamentalism and get revenge!
ArchAngel: Again, don't inflict your ideals onto another cultures traditions, it never works that way, it just clouds the potential for understanding. As it stands, I think killing for any reason is unjustified, regardless of circumstance (another topic, we'll breeze passed that for now.) It is a fact though, that as long as humans run a system, no matter how strong it may be in any given area, it will be fundamentally flawed. If someone managed to forge a balanced, functioning system for anything, it would be the standard model, and we have precious few of those (the only example that springs to mind is Playstation.)
When you say something like "I don't think it's important to..." you're taking what's best handled as an objective scenario and relegating it to the realm of opinion. If this was a discussion based on opinion, as you well know, by now I would've made numerous ridiculous and likely insulting comments regarding both your integrity and ancestral lineage. Thankfully, that's not the case, at least not yet. You never know with me, the night is young.
As for how one rates the integrity of a man, the same way you do with a woman, through observation of the way they live their life and how closely their behavior imitates their words. It just so happens, that in reference to this particular conversation, women have a lasting physical indicator of past actions. I don't know what the equivalent would be to a man, maybe a thin membrane covering the penis that was torn asunder during the first instance of intercourse. Personally, I'm grateful this is not the case, because we tend to be very particular about our tolerance of pain in that region, where the maximum allowable threshold is somewhere between zero and much less than zero. If this membrane existed, the human race would likely have ceased to exist somewhere in the vicinity of generation one.
And, finally, your mother. There, see? Questionable references to your lineage. It's already starting.
Ophan: I'lllet that last statement go as it has no bearing whatsoever to the rest of our conversation here, but any more and I'll have to delete to keep the peace. And HA! I just proved your point correct!
Men don't need a "hymen"... women don't either, obviously, ha.. I don't think killing is justifiable per say, but that doesn't mean I won't do it if I have to. I guess it's better to have humans running the system for the moment, and not a huge computer... which I think could be entirely possible one day in the far far future... : )
ArchAngel: I never said a hymen was necessary for gauging a woman's integrity, but the fact is in this case you have a preexisting biological indicator of behavior. From a purely objective point of view, ignoring social and traditional influences, it's not even that accurate. It's not uncommon for an adolescent girl to "pop her own cherry" unintentionally, say, with the application of a tampon. I once knew a girl whose hymen was torn because of her enthusiastic participation on the track team.
Also, anytime you catch yourself saying "HA! I just proved your point correct!" it typically does not mark an occasion for celebration. Now, if you had proven one of your points correct, then by all means, pat yourself on the back. Be careful not to pull a muscle though, as I'm sure these occasions are few and far between.
As for the rest of your post, I'm going to disregard the whole thing, for three reasons--
1.) There is never an instance where you "have to" do anything, including take a life. This statement encompasses any act that is not an involuntary biological process (i.e., you do have to circulate blood through your vascular system.) Inaction is always at least one secondary option. The only way to save your life, for example, may be to cut the rope another person is hanging onto because it's tied to the branch you're on above the velociraptor pit. If you don't, the branch will snap, resulting in both of your deaths. But the fact remains that you don't have to cut the rope. You could choose to do nothing and get a violent tour of undesirable cretaceous period intestinal real estate. I already said I was going to breeze passed this issue because it's an in depth philosophy I have not yet completely reconciled with my instincts, and at this point, I've barely actually disregarded anything.
2.) If humanity ever manages to create a system governed by some mythical "supercomputer" artificial intelligence, it will still be a human system. I think what your referencing is the idea that at some point we'll attain the fundamental knowledge required to impart the spark of creativity and imagination unto a machine we've created, allowing it to reach the status of a life form that is indeed not part of our system by virtue of it's own freewill. We don't even understand what gives us this spark yet, not even close, and the thought of us gaining this knowledge and also learning to create and manipulate the factors involved is about as likely as someone convincing me that I might not be awesome at all. We all know how soon that's gonna happen.
Lastly, 3.) Why is it always raptors with me? Is your mother a raptor?
Ophan: It's okay, I can pat you on the back too! I'm in a good mood tonight. Okay, shall I wait to have the killing convo with you for a later date? I think it will always be a gray area for me and most people, but there I go giving my opinion again...
Yes, I was referencing that "spark" and that's what I said the "far far future"... Honestly, the idea is on par with a part sci-fi, part medical mystery novel to me at the moment.
Yes, I know all those hymen breaking stories. It's cool.
When I said men don't need a hymen etc., I meant that literally. Men have penises, women don't. Penises are obviously cooler. When it comes down to it, integrity is important, but one can always lie.
Raptors? Huh...
ArchAngel: Lying and integrity are mutually exclusive concepts. The measure of integrity, as defined by me, is how closely your words sync up with your actions. Deception of any kind disrupts the synchronicity. Of course, on a day to day basis, you already know which of these practices is in more widespread use. Read - politicians.
Not all opinions are unfounded. In fact, they tend to match up to fact, by degrees, ranging from absurd all the way up to nearly proven. In this case, you're much closer to the latter - while there's no realistic way to gather empirical data ensuring a natural law is defined stating that the justification of taking another sentient life will never be universally agreed upon, it can be safely assumed that this is so. Of course, if it were proven somehow, it would cease to be an opinion and would become a fact.
Also, penises are cooler, but not nearly as fashionable. A naked woman can be beautiful. A naked man looks like a partially decorated Christmas tree. And cloacae, well, don't even get me started!
ArchAngel: How come as soon as we start going back and forth, everyone else abandons the conversation? You're all cowards.
That's a fact, not an opinion.
Ophan: Haha!